Computer DJs vs Turntable Mixing
90Computer DJs vs Turntable Mixing
Does turntable mixing define a DJ or can a computer DJ rock the house just as hard? Personally, I think it is all preference. They are both good skills to have, as computer DJs can often produce music that turntable DJs just cannot produce. With that said, I don't think Turtable mixing defines the DJ.
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What makes a DJ?
Does scratching make the DJ?
I’m an aspiring controllerist, or digital disk jockey. I’ve only really been messing around with production programs for 3 or 4 months, but already I’ve noticed a trend. Apparently you aren’t a DJ if you don’t have outdated vinyl albums and you scratch (at least, according to many). I’ve heard this from “oldschool” DJs (most of whom nobody’s ever heard of) and crowds alike. I was promoting for a festival in downtown San Diego last Friday and I had a couple tell me Felix Da Housecat was a terrible DJ because he didn’t scratch. I don’t get into arguments with people like that because you can’t change their minds, so I laughed and moved onto the next bystandard. As I stood outside of the club listening to FDHC’s set and passing out flyers I thought to myself, “who the hell needs scratching?”
Personally, I think it’s just jealousy. DJ’s spent so long mastering the scratching technique on technology that was obviously on its way out the door (turntables). Talking trash about controllerists (DJs who use midi controllers to modify the audio properties of the files they are playing) is a way of validating their own hard work. Controllerism is the way of the future. I’m not saying that scratching will ever be a useless skill, but it’s not necessary. Joel Zimmerman (AKA Deadmau5) plays sets all the time, without scratching (or using vinyl as far as I can tell) and he BRINGS THE HOUSE DOWN. Tons of DJs out there do the exact same thing. I suppose it all depends on style, practice, and personal preference.
So, in my quest to become a somewhat successful DJ, I think I’ll keep buying midi controllers and spend time learning scratching when I’m bored of everything else.
Why not start with scratching?
Well, the PC/MAC industry has ensured that many households in America can afford computers, and it's a good way to start learning about music. Why computers first? Let's look at the price differences. How much money do you NEED to spend to perform with a computer or vinyl?
Vinyl
For sake of argument I'm going to ignore the people using Serato (A computer program that simulates vinyl) - Their total would be about $2400 for the cheapest turntables+interface combo and a laptop.
2 Decent Turntables - $800
Mixer - $200
Music - $10 to $15 per vinyl album
Total: $1000 + Music
or
CDJ: $700 for a CHEAP full set, plus $10-$15 per cd
Computer
Assuming you don't already have a computer:
Laptop - $1000
External Sound Card - $200
USB Mixer - $300
Ableton Live (All in one Software) - $500
Music - $.99 per song (unless it's free)
Samples - Free, or $99 for the Deadmau5 x-pack (higher quality)
Total: $2000 + Samples/Music
Total if you already own a laptop: $1000 + Samples/Music
Vinyl seems cheaper
So, vinyl seems cheaper to start.
True but what can you do with vinyl? Well, you can mix other peoples music. You can apply a few effects with the filters on the mixer, and scratch. You can mix between to songs.
With a computer, you only have to spend more if you do not have a laptop. Otherwise you spend the same amount. What can I do with this laptop? I can perform other peoples music, mixing it together with Ableton and with your USB mixer. I can remix music. Most importantly I can create my own music. Can I scratch? No, but I can replicate the sound pretty easily. I can also modify the sound in more unique ways for the performance itself. There's much more freedom in it. I can easily create my own beats, mix my own loops, even create a completely new song.
It seems the benefits from spending a little more money (MAYBE) are obvious. I'm not saying mixing vinyl is a bad skill to have, eventually I'd like to learn how to scratch well. The point is, vinyl no longer determines the DJ. It's called electronic music, and computers are the most common electronic device around. How long could the electronic scene have gone without digital controllerists? Not long at all. I'm happy it did, and I'm also happy there are vinyl DJs. They both have their benefits, and they expand the musical community as a whole. In my opinion, that's a good thing.
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After thoughts - Years Later
After re-reading this hub a few years later I still agree with many of the points here. I did start out with a computer, and an APC40 controller (awesome for Ableton live performances). While I feel this was a good way to start, it eventually lead into buying a "real" mixer and "real" tables. I believe that flexibility is important to any performer. You shouldn't have to rely on a computer to play live, but if you have a computer you should be able to spruce up performances with it. I now own an APC40, a DJM 800, 2 Pioneer CDJ 900s, along with my monitors and computer. I love each piece!
All in all, enjoy yourself!
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well i think turntables are point less because in the end isnt aboout thhe quality of music you produce which is better when you use a midi control and a lab top? come on people its called innovation dont be afraid to throw away your big blocks of buttons lol
Definitely the combination of both as with most amateurs now a days. I assume mostly amateurs will be reading this anyway. Good work!
its like organic or mass produced tables taste better better for ya ..computer practical cost effective slightly bland but necessary...dot fight it man its useless...i know
There is still a great art in being able to do turntable mixing. http://www.behringermixer.co.uk
It's about the music at the end of the day, and you can carry more music with you on a laptop or hard drive than you can in a record box. That's the clincher for me.
djs are djs doesnt matter digital or eletronic its just a new era
I look at it more from the perspective of Electronic music as a whole. To me, a DJ is just someone who is "jockeying" a party or radio station or in other words, the personality behind the table who is making the party jump.
An electronic artist, or computer DJ as you say, would be someone who actually composes music via electronic methods. Playing live that could include control mechanisms, vinyl or in combo.
In any case, this is really the next generation of music, and I can def. embrace the cultural shift. Deadmau5 is the JAM...saw him at Bonnaroo, amazing!
Both have there pros and cons and can depend on what your trying to achieve. The word on the street is the Technics turntables have been discontinued so this long running feud could be over for ever!
I love my vinyl and decks as much as the next but it gets harder by the day to put up arguments against digital sound, software and equipment!
Someone asked me today:
How do I feel about modern DJ technology over vinyl?
Hmmm...
It's all modern technology... There is no "over vinyl"...
Just because your local record shop may have closed doesn't affect what they are and what they do... Some dude on another thread was announcing that he 10,000 piece collection... he could play for weeks straight and not repeat a track... Even he doesn't know what he's got...
Viability and genre and all that crap is basically in your mind... It's not real unless you buy into it... and you can still buy vinyl... it's not dead, nor is the value of learning the methods... whether you ever spin for a live crowd with them or not...
learning cdj's won't help you near as much when you then move to tables as the other way round... the experience makes you elsewhere... it's not about either or when it comes to a real dj, as it were...
A DJ is a DJ, but a DJ is going to be hard to pass off with a laptop and a toy controller and no other skills...
use the auto-sync... it's not really going to help you... but for you, that may be a more intuitive way to fabricate a mix with your combo... make a mix... however you can... and do a really good job...
...and auto-sync ain't cheating... but it ain't making you a DJ either... people are kinda loose with the term... but whatever... play house.... play cars or cops and robbers... that's what that is...
i'm sure not "the man"... but i'm a DJ... that's still half-a-lifetime away from mastering anything... to think one has mastered 2 turntables and has nowhere else to go to be creative is insane talk... like moving to a "platform", like ableton and "maschine" caused you to graduate...
so you can mix a beat on your own and don't need to prove yourself to anyone else, or whatever? what does that do for others? not a goddamned thing...
if you feel like you "left" that world, then it was just one's own world, or a chapter in it... it wasn't a world that felt your absence, once you "opted"...
if the equipment still works then it's working equipment...
ultimate creative freedom is bullshit... everyone has that, no matter what they use... and always has... more buttons, less buttons... i doubt many have tested the limits of their equipment... that's just something to say, Sasha...
"cheaters" are the ones that typically dime other "cheaters", usually, because of some 'perceived' unfair advantage... so "cheating" doesn't mean shit... u simply can't... you either are or you aren't.... A DJ....
And... it is extremely difficult to lie about that sort of thing to anyone that really is... so it's just not a good practice to.... what? fake it??? IDK...
Do whatever you want... Nobody's stopping anyone from doing what they can do... but just don't deceive yourself...
When I speak of skills, I'm not referring to what one one learns before they can match a beat and walk away... for a bit... choose a record... trim a fingernail...
Even if one were to end up there correctly of one's own devices... The world that exists "beyond" that basic - i.e. THE BASIC - skill, is not going to present itself to you... until you can feel comfortable with that... and providing you've overcome your bad habits... Nor is anyone with anything to say that's well-developed and useful or instructive, going topen up to you to help you grasp what's there... outside a context... you're on your own...
As far as the "Real DJ" subject is concerned... when, at any time you can now stand up with the balls and say "I'M A DJ!!!" and feel it and mean it, and not risk anything you're not prepared to handle - i'd say one has graduated...
other than that, you can do whatever it is that you do.... and the bullshitters come from both sides of that stupid argument, and if you want to believe that's the point - go ahead - but just don't try to try and make "EVERYONE" else believe what you say, unless you know what that is...
If you claim to care about a thing... and then lie about it, for the sole sake of defending your position, then don't get anxious, rather - think twice - because it's weak, and is a bold illustration that you only "really" care about yourself...
But I don't... I care about the thing...
One more quick thing: CDJ's, Denon's, dual-drawers, Traktor and Xone's and mixer rack and tabletops, KAZOO... all that stuff don't stop just because you're learning how to spin records...
Thing is, you just won't "get" all that other stuff until you do... If you don't ever, like you likely won't, are you still a DJ? I don't know... Call yourself whatever, it's not gonna bug me out, there's nothing you'll be taking away from me...
Call yourself the Queen of England... It's up to you, I suppose... If you land some cool position and don't really deserve it?? it happens...
Do this: Fake it till ya make it, K? But don't talk too much... That way folks that might have issues, won't have as many issues with YOU...
Then learn something every day, and have and show a little respect to those that might have a shade more knowledge than you, and don't be afraid of flat-out admit in a crowd:
"I don't know shit, but I love this stuff, and you can't make me quit!"
Put that in your bio sections, or 'about me' type of shit... People would rather hear that from anyone... even if they were lying... - about not knowing shit...
People really dig humility and enthusiasm with a little humor... It's better than fiction any day... There's your recipe, fucking go for it!!!
Man, I don't know if you've made the purchase yet, but you probably should go laptop... It'll give you some options... from my veiw, that's a no-brainer... TT's, if you haven't already been collecting, is just going to cause buyer's remorse, and for you would be a single-purpose tool... and inhumane... they'd be starving...
;-)
If you wanna do anything else related to records, then start building a little stash of vinyl... source new vinyl... a couple pieces a month or so of new, just to support vinyl whether u ever play it or not... you'll be a proud real-estate owner... and whatever you can get used, from wherever... don't turn your nose up at anything...
...and, I know the circles you were exposed to about the scratchin' shit... :-) Cool as hell, huh?
Get that shit off your mind... you'll touch more people the other way... and speaking of that:
The trade-off (the real one) between a high, or any quality digital setup vs. Technics 1200Mk?
It's not about sound quality, but that's there, for sure... those issues... however dynamic and variable...
without getting 'too' into the subject... "big party", "big sound", "too much cheer" for example... not paying attention to sound, but what they do not ever forget, and you all may have had similar exp., so meditate on this... They NEVER forget the 'feeling', but have no resources to completely explain what gave that 'vibe' to the event... alot of it has to do with the TT... it's that thing that makes it quirky, imperfect, and partially makes it so hard to be good w/ beatmatching (using just pitch - no toucha' da' platter)
It's the DC-servo motor and ultra-fine adustments and the natural action of it causes it to phase just a little when otherwise almost match/locked-on... creates these (to artists and writers) little ongoing conflicts and their micro resolutions...
People don't know what's happening, but something about our minds and bodies digs that shit... and so its the 'FEELING', not the sound... TT's win... but that's that... just a fun-fact, not an argument... it is a HUGE impacter though in the right hands... music don't sound the same without it (and it's not about the sound, but that's what we say about it...)
@Bobby Rainmaker
Wow, in depth great comments. I did end up going with the PC, and using ableton with an APC 40 for "mixing". I am actually looking around, hoping to pick up some turn tables, because VDJ Torq and programs like that have the most inaccurate pitch controls EVER! Plus, like I said, I feel its good to have both skills.
Sorry, it took me so long to get back to this... Great!!! Good choice... Now you can check your email during your set... ;-) Just kidding... Good luck to you! You have a lot of options with that setup... Infinite, I'm sure, but I think I touched on that somewhere... :-) I noticed just after the announcement was made that Panasonic (Technics) was discontinuing production on the 1200's, that they almost doubled in price... :-) I'm sure used 1200's will last forever, as long as the parts supply holds out, and I figure they will for a while, but the point is: My friend has some belt-drive Stantons... When he asks me over for house parties, I kinda enjoy playing on them... I can't remember the exact model, maybe TT-80's??, and even from what I said about the DC Servo motors and the sloppy resolution of the 1200's... and that being one of the elements that really bring the vibe... I'm mostly talking about a small percentage of DJ's - and then, the one's that have a certain technique of - well, basically keeping their stinking hands off the platter after the throw the first beat... so, back to the point... :-) Those Stantons, even the belt drive ones do a more precise job of getting on pitch than do 1200's... That effect I spoke of suffers a bit, but they are fine for someone learning... Just FYI is all... I'm sure you could come into a set of those, and even new ones for quite cheap comparably, and in my opinion, you wouldn't be losing anything that you'd miss otherwise... So yeah, I'm a vinyl head, but I'm a DJ... Whatever you got, I'll give it my best shot... I'm a DJ, not JUST a nerd... ;-) or someone that got infected by hi-fidelity language... and ideas on equipment... that's BS when it crosses over into the "trade"... I said it... It's a trade... Remember that... Even if it's not much - GET PAID... If you're doing it for the love of the music, then fuckin' OVERCHARGE...
A promoter will "let you play"... for free... the idea that "getting seen" alone, is some type of reward... Well, they fuckin' suck... a promoter that will do that... Remember that... That type of thing is not just killing the trade and the tradition - it's killing music and local scenes... diversity is suffering in many places... because all the no-pay DJ's get strung out by these promoters and kept on flyers, rotating them around every week or so, and it ends up with all the nights booked, at no cost for the talent for those "in charge", and so people end up having to pay at the door for basically a "talent show"... or a "free show" type of thing, and don't know it... and because of the way people drop in and out of scenes and their reasons, it results in a scene consisting of whomever shows up that has an idea that they like "whatever" electronic music, and think these DJ's are "the deal"... and so do these $10 DJs - they think they're the deal... :-/
And those that are really passionate about the music and have been for some time stay home, or find something else to do... and Pro DJ's... Well, sometimes they can't find work... Nobody pays anymore...
I bring that up to make a small point before closing... That is: We lost more than vinyl records in the trade for the 'promise of technology'... and many are taking advantage of that fact... and fine, but what has it done??? what is it going to do???
Ya' know... Archaeologists of the future are going to love the vinyl era... They're going to be the 'clay pots' for nearly 100 years of history... I'd have to imagine there will be "specialists" trained in "vinyl"... You know they'll find a way to play them... Just think if you'd made the mistake of choosing as your specialty: Reverse-Engineering PCB's... just to see what they did for the culture... :-) or better yet, Data-Recovery - of old hard drives and flash media... and whatever might be derived from that business... :-) Sure... there will be some music here and there... but you know much is going to be lost, and much harder to categorize... :-)
The future, I think, is going to judge us some way or another... I guess I'd rather be associated with the vinyl era, I think... Rather than be one of those that opted for 'creative freedom' and good sense... :-) You know, the ones that put the major gap in the muical history... ;-) Food for thought...
I'm sure some of my boxes will be buried in the rubble and layers somewhere... Metal-clad... Padded on the insides... and locked... I think a few records will make it... What do you think??? :-)
allme scalco 2 years ago
very concise & well put. one item you didn't appear to mention.. th level of skill & knowledge of your music, necessary to mix on vinyl. some artists will 'cheat' & use th computer to take short-cuts when playing live. now i'm not castin dispersions, simply statin th facts & feel that this may be a contributing factor in dissin' laptop dj's..
imho - what you do @ home... all good.
- when hired to perfom... give 'em a performace.
artistic challenges cause growth & positive results.